Disabling Deprecated HTML Using CSS

97 comments so far | Add yours

  <style type="text/css">

  font,basefont {
    color:inherit; /* Standard browsers */
    color:expression(this.parentNode.currentStyle['color']); /* IE */
    font:inherit; /* Standard browsers. Font instead of font-size for Opera */
    font-family:expression(this.parentNode.currentStyle['fontFamily']); /* IE */
    font-size:100%; /* All browsers. Sizes are inherited */
  }
  center {
    text-align:inherit; /* Standard browsers */
    text-align:expression(this.parentNode.currentStyle['textAlign']); /* IE */
  }
  s,strike,u {
    text-decoration:inherit; /* Standard browsers */
    text-decoration:expression(this.parentNode.currentStyle['textDecoration']); /* IE */
  }
  *[align] { text-align:inherit; }  /* Standard browsers */
  * { text-align:expression(this.align ? this.parentNode.currentStyle['textAlign'] : ''); }  /* IE */
  img { margin:0; border:none; }  /* All browsers. Borders & margins are not inherited */
  ol { list-style-type:decimal; }  /* All browsers. Removes the type attribute */
  body { background-color:transparent; /* All browsers */ }
  table,tr,th,td {
    width:auto; /* All browsers */
    height:auto; /* All browsers */
    background-color:transparent; /* All browsers */
    vertical-align:inherit; /* All browsers (works in IE) */
    border:none; /* All browsers. Borders are not inherited */
  }

  </style>
  <script type="text/javascript">
  window.onload = function() {
    for (i=0;i<document.getElementsByTagName('img').length;i++) {
      document.getElementsByTagName('img')[i].removeAttribute('vspace');
      document.getElementsByTagName('img')[i].removeAttribute('hspace');
    }
  }
  </script>

97 Responses so far. Add yours.

At 6:05 pm on October 23rd, 2007 , Brian Z wrote:

Great article! Thanks for sharing.

At 6:46 pm on October 23rd, 2007 , Marco wrote:

Impressive work. I guess my only feedback is that there is no kind of “in your face” type of alert that tells the user that deprecated markup has been used. It’s cool that it’s all been disabled and all, but will this truly teach the content editor the prefered way? My $0.02 CAD, of course

At 6:56 pm on October 23rd, 2007 , David Hellsing (author) wrote:

Well, that’s the kind of alert I wanted to avoid. It might not “lecture” the editor, but he will notice that his old-school soup just doesn’t work anymore. It’s also about communication: the client will probably not understand why deprecated HTML is wrong, since it “works”. If it doesn’t “work”, then the client will be forced to stop using it for natural reasons.

This needs to be combined with replacement classes of course, and a proper instructions page to guide the editor in the right direction.

At 9:27 am on October 24th, 2007 , Jacques PYRAT wrote:

What about marquee and blink ?

At 12:50 pm on October 24th, 2007 , James Broad wrote:

Hey David,

Very good approach you have raised here. I do think this technique should be taken with a pinch of salt as it could potentailly lead to some seriously odd looking pages (especially heavily table+font dependent layouts). Agreed that we need to move away from proprietry markup, though (obviously).

Maybe we could use JavaScript in some way to suggest what the semantic equivalent could be to try and SOLVE the issues. I just cant think off the top of my head what would be the most unobtrusive way of implementing this? Maybe a neat little bookmarklet (cross browser support) with inline captions?

At 1:49 pm on October 24th, 2007 , David Hellsing (author) wrote:

@James: Thanks for your input. This technique should probably not be used in already existing projects or sites as it might ruin the existing layout, as you wrote. But I believe it could be useful at the very start of a project as a restrained helper that prevents deprecated markup from being used. Probably in combination with a CSS reset file.

I would probably create a number of replacement classes for the editor, like .center{text-align:center} and several font classes, and make sure the client or editor uses them instead. It’s very important to make sure that the client doesn’t get the impression that good HTML equals annoying limitations.

At 3:19 pm on October 24th, 2007 , James Broad wrote:

@David: Yea i can see your point, but if, lets say, you are in control of the project, in an ideal world, it would best to take the prevention is better than cure route i.e. `sanitize` content.

This is a real world problem that we face that to give someone full control over what markup they use, there is ALWAYS going to be issues.

I love what you have highlighted here in trying to ‘do away’ with the ‘nasties’. I would always choose this myself for a project i want COMPLETE control over!

Let me pose this potential issue (something we would have to be careful with taking this approach (especially when tampering with the font tag)):

Client: ‘What happened to that text i made Big, in teal, in italics and in Comic Sans font’?
You: ‘Don’t worry i will just sort that out for you’ (go off and make a css class/inline style)
Client: ‘Thanks, but i have just changed some other text and the same problem has occurred!’
You: ‘Ok, i’ll sort it’ (pulling hair out)

At 3:55 pm on October 24th, 2007 , David Hellsing (author) wrote:

@James: ok, how about this:

Client: ‘What happened to that text i tried to make in italics and Comic Sans font?’

You: ‘How did you do that? What tag did you use?’

Client: ‘I used the font tag like I did on other sites. Is there something wrong with that?’

You: ‘Well, the font tag is not supported anymore since it’s old and not very common. Try these classes I made for you instead.’

At 4:05 pm on October 24th, 2007 , James Broad wrote:

@David: Of course that would be the best case scenario to be able to identify and in the process, educate the client on web standards.

I could go on all day at being a cynic, i won’t though, its a tricky subject to say the least, and i can’t express how refreshing it is to see people (such as yourself) identifying possible solutions, as you have done so well…

At 4:20 pm on October 24th, 2007 , David Hellsing (author) wrote:

@James: You are not being cynical, just realistic. Believe me, I know how it is to deal with real world clients that only knows a limited amount of HTML and are using every pixel-trick they know just to make the content look the way the want. It’s almost impossible to try and lecture about web standards because the client just couldn’t care less. Most clients only care about how the site looks, visually.

But if we can gently disable some of the nastiness from the HTML features, the client might just give it an extra thought since his old tricks doesn’t work anymore. And at the same time explain why. You can always tell them that “oh, you are using the font tag. well that particular tag is not supported anymore in HTML. Try this instead.”

Perhaps you get some annoyed phone calls, but I still prefer this approach instead of putting alarming big red warning texts or trying to verbally convince them that web standards are good. Most clients have to “see it to believe it”.

Thank you for your realistic views on this matter, much appreciated.

At 4:36 pm on October 24th, 2007 , James Broad wrote:

Yea, striking a fine balance would be the key.

Something i have just remembered… Something as simple as not closing that little tag… Oh the pain!

Heres another little something that could be worked on in the overiding in CSS front; using the power of CSS Attribute selectors: http://www.andybudd.com/archives/2003/09/cool_use_for_css_attribute_selectors/

At 6:22 pm on October 24th, 2007 , David Hellsing (author) wrote:

Three more old-school tags you can disable:


nobr { white-space:normal; }
marquee { overflow:visible; -moz-binding:none; }
blink { text-decoration:none; }


At 1:57 am on November 12th, 2007 , Allan Haggett wrote:

Hello

While this is an interesting and novel approach, I’d have to warn against using it for anything but small websites where performance doesn’t really factor (and even then, only including a conditionally commented sheet for IE only).

As pointed out by Yahoo!’s Steve Souders in “High Performance Web Sites: 14 Rules For Faster Pages”,
( http://yuiblog.com/blog/2007/09/04/video-souders/ )
CSS expressions adversley affect the performance of web pages because they are re-evaluated at every move of the mouse or any other user action.

At very least, I would embed the expressions in a conditionally commented out style sheet so that at least people on real browsers not requiring them won’t be subjected to the performance hit.

At 2:05 am on November 12th, 2007 , Stuart Steel wrote:

I’ve been wanting to try my hand at this problem for a while, now I don’t have to thanks to this great work.

Most customers / users are not in a position to have a conversation about web standards. Its enough for them just to know a bit of old school HTML (if that). This is the best solution. With CMS solutions the eternal bugbear is all the formatting that creeps in with the dreaded paste-from-word. Its almost impossible to stop clients from doing this, or explain to them why they shouldn’t - at least now presentation won’t suffer.

At 2:52 am on November 12th, 2007 , Matt wrote:

Nice work! I will be using this in the near future for sure. Thanks.

At 3:09 am on November 12th, 2007 , karim wrote:

Now here’s a subject that intersts me.
I’m smiling while reading, since it’s somehow funny. Not that the used technique isn’t technically, but the in-your-face procédé is really fun!
Thanks for sharing.

At 11:37 am on November 12th, 2007 , Matthew Pennell wrote:

I’ll echo the advice of Allan Haggett above - piling that many expressions into one stylesheet could seriously impact site performance.

Also, “I would prefer to avoid javascript alltogether…” - what do you think the expressions are using? In fact, you could do better by getting rid of the expressions and just applying all the CSS fixes in one simple onload event; that way you might avoid the side-effects of expressions that Allan mentioned.

At 11:49 am on November 12th, 2007 , David Hellsing (author) wrote:

@Allan & Matthew: I’m aware of the side-effects of expressions. But there is also a huge difference between one expression versus another. For example: climbing the DOM tree with something like previousSibling will slow down your site (in IE) 100 times more than using a simple parentNode. You can use something like this to optimize your expressions, but my tests indicate that it won’t do much.

The code I posted in this article works. If it’s worth it compared to performance on your site is up to you. You should always test and compare before releasing anything, as always.

You can put the expressions in a conditional comment style sheet if you like to stay valid in the main CSS, but it won’t affect performance since they are ignored by all browsers except IE anyway.

At 11:54 am on November 12th, 2007 , Allan Haggett wrote:

Cool that you know about the performance issues and have considered them. Good on ya for finding an efficient method

I’m sorry if I sounded overly critical. This is a well-thought-out post that I’ve now had the time to read all the way through.

Thanks.

At 12:37 pm on November 12th, 2007 , Sangesh wrote:

This was quite an informative article. It would have been more wonderful if you had something about browser specific tags like marquee and others.

At 12:42 pm on November 12th, 2007 , David Hellsing (author) wrote:

@Sangesh: have a look through the comments…

At 1:37 pm on November 12th, 2007 , János wrote:

Interresting thought, but why not strip deprecated tags and parameters out on the server side along with this? You’d still have to use this on the backend, but it wouldn’t slow the frontend.

At 2:26 pm on November 12th, 2007 , David Hellsing (author) wrote:

@Janos: as stated in the article, that is also what I suggest as probably the best solution. But many times you don’t have control over the server-side or backend as a web designer. That is when this technique is most effective.

At 4:14 pm on November 12th, 2007 , Mike wrote:

Interesting, you’re using non-standard css to tell other’s that their using non-standard html. Nice idea all the same

At 5:55 pm on November 12th, 2007 , David Hellsing (author) wrote:

@Mike: not quite. the only “non-standard” css in this article are the expressions, and those target IE only since it doesn’t fully support the inherit value. The rest is very standard.

At 7:42 pm on November 12th, 2007 , János wrote:

@David: very true. As I noticed here in Hungary, clients tend to order full CMS solutions including HTML, CSS and backend. It may be the subject of an other post, but I would be very much interrested, what kind of projects you don’t have at least initial control over the backend…

At 8:35 am on November 22nd, 2007 , baobaz wrote:

Damn IE. but it’s a good article. I like.

At 5:42 pm on November 29th, 2007 , Kevo Thomson wrote:

Great article. There is a typo you should fix though: it’s ‘lose control’ not ‘loose control’.

At 9:36 am on December 4th, 2007 , Sergey wrote:

просто здорово! скорее всего буду использовать!
I used some of this technique, but not systematically

At 4:49 am on March 9th, 2008 , moocow wrote:

Funny that a page about good content structure requires Flash to display something.

I get about a dozen “This content requires the Flash Player. Download Flash Player. Already have Flash Player? Click here.” paragraphs.

And no, I’m not about to enable the plug-ins just so I can view whatever I’m supposed to be viewing. It’s also the last time I visit this website.

At 4:52 am on April 12th, 2008 , Jason wrote:

People need to come off their high horse about Flash already…

Good article. In an optimal environment, the client would see their changes before making them live. In such a case I would add some scripting along with this CSS to alert the client to the reasons their code is not working.

At 1:08 pm on October 16th, 2008 , Book wrote:

is the best solution. With CMS solutions the eternal bugbear is all the formatting that creeps in with the dreaded paste-from-word. In fact, you could do better by getting rid of the expressions and just applying all the CSS fixes in one simple onload event; that way you might avoid the side-effects of expressions that Allan mentioned. It would have been more wonderful if you had something about browser specific tags like marquee. I would be very much interrested.

At 5:44 pm on October 16th, 2008 , dış cephe wrote:

Great article. Thanks.

At 12:39 pm on October 18th, 2008 , flash tekkie wrote:

Re color:expression(this.parentNode.currentStyle['color']); /* IE */:

Any script execution at the Style Sheet stack of the browser is a performance issue and more importantly a security threat so the use of IE expressions should not be encouraged. It’s a non-standard approach that does not comply with W3C directives.

Good news is Microsoft is ending expressions in Internet Explorer as announced on Thursday earlier this week. Indeed a very nice move towards the standard-compliant browser.

At 1:55 am on November 2nd, 2008 , oyunlar wrote:

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At 1:15 pm on November 14th, 2008 , söve wrote:

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At 5:24 pm on November 18th, 2008 , Meme Estetigi wrote:

For those of you thinking that if they implement this it will eliminate some of the waiting and lines…

At 2:30 am on November 20th, 2008 , karacocuk61 wrote:

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At 6:42 pm on February 3rd, 2009 , oyunlar wrote:

thanks

At 1:29 pm on March 26th, 2009 , Narconon Vistabay wrote:

well quite a few, some images are about 100kb, ive tried doing with css, but seems to me that it is not really quicker. Do you have any idea how to print the image?

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At 6:52 pm on April 21st, 2009 , radyo dinle wrote:

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At 3:32 am on April 23rd, 2009 , avatar wrote:

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At 11:42 pm on April 28th, 2009 , sikiş wrote:

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